During his time as Huddersfield boss Shanks drove to Falkirk to watch you and Ron Yeats play against each other. Did you know he’d been present that night?
I do remember the game because Ron always had long nails and the big b******d scratched the back of my neck while trying to grab my jersey. I had the scars for months afterwards.
I was playing for Scotland U23s and I think Ron was playing for the army. But I had no idea that Shanks was on the sidelines.
A 1961 Sunday Post story revealed you were going to leave Motherwell. Did you want to move?
When I put in a transfer request it was hopefully to move to Newcastle United who had already tapped me up. I’d planned to join them and was confident the transfer would go ahead.
Then why choose Liverpool, a club enduring their seventh consecutive year outside of the top flight?
(Laughs) The truth is it wasn’t me choosing. It was a case of being almost forced or coerced to join. ‘You’re coming to Liverpool,’ Shanks told me.
Before I knew it I was there, thinking ‘Jesus, what’s going on?’
Of course Liverpool weren’t a big club then, they were a second division side. Shanks conveniently kept forgetting to mention that.
What were your initial impressions of him?
Well I joined his team, so he was obviously very persuasive!
He was dynamic and had a huge personality, which he’d use to almost overpower you.
Sometimes it felt like it was difficult to catch your breath in his presence because he was giving you so much information so quickly.
He promised players the world and told us ‘we’ll do this and we’ll be the greatest team or we’ll win the league or the cup’. But the thing about him was everything he said came true.
A lot of managers tell players what they want to hear but don’t have the substance to back it up. He definitely did.
Did you immediately sense he was constructing something special at the club?
To be honest, no. At that stage Shanks had only been there less than 18 months.
He was still in the middle of the re-building process, and just putting his stamp on the place. It was a big job.
He’d also changed the training routine and introduced a lot more ball-work. At Motherwell we were still doing loads of running, so this was different and wonderful. I’d say the same applied for the English boys too. We all enjoyed it.
You were his first big signing, costing a club record £37,500. Did that bring extra pressure?
No, Shanks never really said anything to me about any of that.
I signed in May ‘61 and Ron arrived before the new season started. We both made our league debuts on the opening day down at Bristol Rovers.
Shanks never set people apart so there was no pressure. It was all about the team, as he constantly told us.
He might discuss your role in the side but he never put anyone up on a pedestal. That was the beauty of the system; we were a team and played for each other, the manager and, most importantly in his eyes, the fans.
‘Don’t let them down. They work all week and pay their money to be here so don’t you disappoint them,’ he would say.
That put the frighteners on us. Our number one priority was to the club and the fans, not ourselves.
After winning promotion in 1961/62 did you expect to become first division champions within two years?
We walked out of the second division, winning it by eight points.
Then we had a shaky start to life in the first because we were stepping up in class.
The boss had to assess his side against the big teams and decide what he needed to make us better. I’m sure he realised pretty quickly that he had to bring in more players.
He did that by signing the likes of Willie Stevenson who’d been with Rangers but had gone to Australia. The following year Peter Thompson arrived. He also integrated local lads likes Gerry Byrne.
Do you think any modern manager would be able to take a team from the Championship and turn them into Premier League winners within two seasons of gaining promotion?
You can’t imagine anyone doing it now unless they had huge amounts of money to spend.
It would be possible if you were able to buy lots and lots of top players, but I don’t know how sound that strategy is.
The boss was building from the bottom, creating a foundation for the club for the years ahead.
The most impressive thing about his strategy was he brought in players from smaller clubs and turned them into internationals.
At one stage I was the only player representing my country, within two or three years about ten of the lads were doing the same.
A 5-0 win against Arsenal in April ’64 sealed the title. Could you believe the side had progressed so far in such a short period of time?
Becoming champions felt natural because we’d been progressing for a few years, moving forward all the time.
During our first season up we’d finished eighth and got to the semi-final of the cup.
We thought we were going all the way to win it at Wembley until we met Leicester City in the semi-final. We lost 1-0 and Gordon Banks said he’d played the game of his life.
He was amazing on the day and we just could not get the ball by him. But, even though we lost, we felt we were a team on the up at the time. Winning the title 12 months later was proof of that.
With the club so close to a first championship since 1947 nerves would have been natural. Was that the case prior to the Arsenal match?
You’re joking. None of us were nervous, not at all.
We were playing to win the league. Our attitude was ‘let’s get in to them’.
We had expectancy and adrenalin pumping through our veins, but certainly no nerves.
Shanks gave us his usual message: ‘go out there and enjoy it. This is a great occasion and a great afternoon for football, don’t let the fans down’.
There might have been a few last minute words with one or two of the lads about small details but there was never ‘let’s win the league’.
We knew that was the prize for victory and didn’t need anyone to remind us.
What did Shanks say after the final whistle?
Nothing, he was too busy talking to everybody else to speak to us. He gave the press plenty of copy.
The usual champagne in the dressing room and celebrations took place. But again, there were no great speeches.
What really sticks in my mind from after the game is the fact the trophy wasn’t there because the silly football authorities felt it wouldn’t be right.
We needed the points to be confirmed as champions so they didn’t want to risk bringing the trophy along and us not winning.
But if they had just kept it in a box at the ground then nobody would have known. If we’d won they could have produced it then.
The football authorities haven’t changed much. They’re still doing silly things now.
Shankly had won his first title in impressive fashion. Going into 64/65 were you confident of retaining the crown?
Yes we were. But almost straight after becoming champions we embarked on an end of season tour to America.
We played ten games over there, flying backwards and forwards across the country. It was great because we’d never been to the US.
But I’m sure that took its toll. We never got a rest from the exertions of winning the league in ‘64 because when we got back to England it was pre-season and we were straight into it.
We began 64/65 badly and I think that was the reason why. It meant we didn’t really get going until after Christmas when our FA Cup run started.
I don’t believe it was Shanks idea. I think the directors thought it would be good to cash in on the rise of Liverpool and our title win.
But the players didn’t see much of the money. We got some spending dollars but we had to feed ourselves out of that. The directors were tight with the cash.
1964/65 did bring the club’s first ever FA Cup, thanks to a 2-1 extra-time win over Leeds United at Wembley. How did that victory compare to the two championships you won?
Liverpool had obviously won the league before we did it in ’64 and ‘66.
But they’d been trying to get the cup since 1892. A lot of fans thought they’d never see it being done. There was talk of a hoodoo or a jinx.
When it eventually did happen it felt brilliant. It made up for all those lost years. We’d done it for the old boys who had watched Liverpool all their lives and never thought they’d witness it.
By the time of that FA Cup final victory you’d been working with Shankly for four years. How had your relationship developed?
We came from the same background and got on very well. At the same time he was very easy to fall out with.
He was very strict, never drank or smoked and didn’t want any of us doing it either.
As well as that he wasn’t very social. Shanks didn’t go out much and he only talked about football. He just lived for the game, the team and the club.
You were sent off three times during your Liverpool career. Did that damage your relationship?
Not really. He always gave me a b****king after it happened. ‘F******g keep your hands down,’ he’d tell me.
I was out of order and he said so. He didn’t sit on the fence. I never argued with him, I just took it. I knew I was out of order. There was no point in me saying ‘the other player did this or he did that’.
Whenever I got sent off it was always for retaliation, it was never for fouling someone.
They’d foul me and I’d hit them back. Unfortunately I had a quick temper.
The red mist would come down and before I knew it I’d be walking down the tunnel. I always regretted it.
In November 1969 he dropped you from the team for a game up at Newcastle. What was your reaction?
I was angry but only because he hadn’t told me about it beforehand. I wanted to confront him but I couldn’t find him on the day, I think he was hiding!
People nowadays probably wouldn’t understand because football is a squad game. Back then we were brought up playing 11-man football, every week. To be in the team was everything. Nobody wanted to be a substitute. I didn’t know I wasn’t starting until the teamsheet went up. The boss had done a runner out of the dressing room by that stage.
If he’d taken me aside before the game and told me he was leaving me out I would have been fine. A man-to-man conversation would have solved the problem.
We lost 1-0 and I sat on the bench. But Shanks never came down from the stand to say ‘go on’. He avoided it.
Obviously he didn’t want a confrontation which I think he knew he’d get.
Bob Paisley was telling me to warm up. But my response was ‘if the boss comes down and tells me to warm up I will. Until then I’m not’.
He wouldn’t come down and I wouldn’t go on. It was a stalemate.
On the Monday morning I went in to see him and we trashed it out.
Was it a heated discussion?
Of course. I was angry that he hadn’t told me, after all the years we’d been together.
He’d brought me to the club and we’d had great success so I thought he should have explained his reasons.
I would have understood. I knew the end was coming; I’d already been to Lilleshall to start my coaching badges because I knew my playing days were drawing nearer.
I’ve thought about it lots over the years. I think Shanks probably just wasn’t able to tell me.
He did the same thing with Tommy Smith, left him out and didn’t tell him. Tommy reacted badly too.
I think Shanks knew he had to do it but just couldn’t face up to it.
The FA Cup defeat against second division Watford later that same season is remembered as confirmation of the end for Shankly’s first great side. How did you and your teammates view the result?
That game goes through my mind now and again. It’s one of the black spots from our time at the club.
Ronnie, Roger, me and some more of the lads were all around the same age. We knew we were getting towards the later stage of our careers.
Shanks obviously knew that too and had already started to look towards the future.
On the day we weren’t that bad. It wasn’t as if we got murdered by Watford and all that sh*t which some people believe.
Roger was injured and Bobby Graham played instead of him. He was a good player but missed a decent chance when he probably should have scored.
For their goal Ron went out to the left touchline and made a good tackle.
The ball flew over the sideline and hit the advertising board, which was only up because it was a cup-tie.
In a league game the board wouldn’t have been there and the ball would have flown into the crowd instead.
Watford quickly picked it up, took the throw and crossed it. Ron was still on his way back into the middle as the ball went in.
It was the days of just one ball, so if Ron had kicked it in the stand the game would have been stopped for a few seconds and we could have re-organised. In normal circumstances Ron would then have been back in position to head the ball away.
But the boss knew he could use that game as an indication that rebuilding needed to be done. None of the players could argue with him when he pointed to that result.
If it hadn’t been that game it might have been another later that season. We knew the end was coming, it eventually comes for everyone.
After you left Liverpool did you and Shanks still keep in touch?
Yeah, the great thing about him was he didn’t hold grudges. We’d still have a chat and laugh about things.
I went away to play in South Africa and had a great year there.
Then when I came back to the UK I joined Noel Cantwell as his assistant at Coventry. But when he got sacked I resigned.
A few years later I’d become manager at Motherwell and Shanks phoned me to ask if I fancied going down to Portsmouth.
He told me it would be a great move. I think he remembered Pompey from the war years when the port was busy and the crowds were big. That was the image of the club he still had in his head.
It was the worst move anyone could ever have made. They talk about financial problems at Portsmouth now, but that would be luxury compared to what I had. The chairman was broke and we didn’t have a single penny to spend.
Did Shanks’ retirement in 1974 take you by surprise?
At the ’74 FA Cup final I thought he looked tired. I felt he might be getting near the end of the road. A rest probably would have done him some good but I still didn’t expect him to quit.
Shanks’ infatuation with the game was obviously good for LFC but do you think there was a downside to it for him?
I think so, because in life you probably do need another interest.
When he retired he really missed the day-to-day involvement.
As far as I know he never had anything else. He talked about boxing sometimes but really everything was football, football, football.
This was a man so infatuated with the game that he’d go for a kick-around with kids.
During his first year at Liverpool he drove back to Huddersfield to play football on a Sunday afternoon. Then he started organising games in West Derby so he didn’t have to make the journey.
He was at the club every day. If one of us had a bit of an injury we’d report in on a Sunday morning and he’d always be there talking to the staff.
I think he went to Melwood during the summer just to watch the grass grow.
And even after he’d retired he was still turning up there.
So, yeah, maybe another interest would have benefited him.
The club’s handling of the situation has often been criticised. What do you think they should have done?
Shanks was basically a lost soul when he retired. The directors felt that he was a fly in the ointment because his presence at the training ground didn’t allow Bob to get on with being manager.
Making him an ambassador would have been the perfect solution. That idea mightn’t have existed back then but it would have worked perfectly.
Kenny does it now and Shanks would have been great too.
Everyone in the game knew him; his name was famous all over Europe so it would have been the ideal role. He would have loved it.
Not doing so was a major mistake by the club, they let him down.
How did his death affect you?
It was unexpected and very, very sad. I think it deeply affected everyone who knew or met him because he was a unique person.
Thankfully he got to see the team win the European Cup. That was part of his legacy because he left Bob a great side which continued what he’d started.
People ask how he would do in the modern game. But I always think great managers would be great managers in any era. He’d adapt to new methods and new systems and have no problem achieving success.
Everyone seems to have their own favourite Shankly story, what’s yours?
One that always sticks out for me happened when we were staying in a hotel before an away game.
On the way there Bill had been speaking about a Muhammad Ali fight that was taking place that night. He was really looking forward to watching it on TV.
We had steak and chips for dinner and before Bill finished his a few of the lads went into next room where the TV was on.
Some old dears were there watching Coronation Street and the players were either too afraid or too polite to ask if they could switch over to the boxing.
When Shanks walked in he immediately asked ‘what’s going on lads?’
After surveying the scene for a second he said ‘we’ll have a democratic vote to decide what to watch’.
‘All of those who want to watch Coronation Street put your hands up’.
The three old ladies quickly raised their hands.
Then Shanks said ‘all who want to watch boxing put your hands up’. Of course him and all the players raised their hands.
‘Right, boxing it is’ he quickly replied and changed the channel. The women didn’t even bother arguing.
ENDS
LFC Weely is available in all good newsagents or on www.merseyshop.com
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